« The Inherent Victory Of Terrorists.... | Main | America »

August 19, 2006

Provender For Thought

Another o' them dang forwarded emails that make one think about things....

About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior. "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years.

During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

3. From courage to liberty;

4. From liberty to abundance;

5. From abundance to complacency;

6. From complacency to apathy;

7. From apathy to dependence;

8. From dependence back into bondage "

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election.

Population of counties won by:

Gore: 127 million

Bush: 143 million

Square miles of land won by:

Gore: 580,000;

Bush: 2,427,000

States won by

Gore 19;

Bush: 29

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by

Gore: 13.2

Bush: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in
government-owned tenements and living off government welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase. Our European friends have over 70 percent of the population in most European countries reaching the "governmental dependency" phase due to opening their immigration to allow poor immigrants into their countries.

The United States originally opened their immigration policy to people that had a required skill or profession. Somewhere along the timeline, probably in the 1970's, that policy slipped to allow anyone into the United States. It didn't matter if a person had a skill or profession.

Pass this along to help everyone realize just how much is at stake, knowing that apathy is the greatest danger to our freedom.

PS: If the Senate grants Amnesty and citizenship to 20 million criminal invaders called illegal's and they vote, then goodbye USA in less than 5 years.

H/T Brenda


Reader Arthur Stone has introduced information that casts some degree of doubt on the actual origins of the theory expressed in the email published in this article, so I began looking into it. I had intended to catch up on some long overdue sleep, but on hitting the rack, I found that I kept thinking about Arthur's link to Snopes on the subject and got back up -- two mega-strong pots of Cafe Bustelo later, I have found references to both the content and the work itself, apparently an essay or an excerpt from an essay, going back several decades and being attributed not only to Tyler -- actual name Tytler, but to several other historical reknowns including former British PM Disraeli.

Snopes claims that the quoted material does not appear in the work it is attributed to, based apparently on a keyword search of Tytler's Universal History, from the Creation of the World to the Beginning of the Eighteenth Century, by Alexander Fraser Tytler, but others claim that book as the source.

So, I've "put my money where my mouth is", so to speak, and just spent nearly $60.00 express ordering a copy of the book. When I receive it, I'll go through it cover to cover in search of the essay and report my findings here.

-- Seth

Posted by Seth at August 19, 2006 08:42 PM


A very disturbing progression in that list at the top of this blog article!

About immigration, we need to rethink birthright citizenship.

Posted by: Always On Watch at August 20, 2006 04:13 AM

Like Lt.Col.Ledee said:

"I hate to see what the world is going to look like in 20 yrs from now. I won't be here to see it. Just trying to do what I can now."

Posted by: Nelly at August 20, 2006 04:50 AM

AOW --

I completely agree, and there is something of a time priority in the matter.

This entire issue of children born to criminal aliens on U.S. soil making them automatic citizens is a load of bullshirt, it is contrary to the 14th Amendment, as is indicated in your linked post. Whichever politician(s) approved that nonsense were violating Constitutional law, period -- even an idiot could not misinterpret the law, it could only have been disregarded intentionally.

Our politicians certainly do need a refresher course on the Constitution, a great surprise as one would figure that if one aspires to political leadership in the U.S. one would make a point of having at least some expertise in our Constitution.

As for the issue of seperating children from their parents, there's another bunch of liberal malarkey -- I see no reason why they can't be kept together right through the entire repatriation process.

Nelly --

I know exactly where Ledee is coming from. I have said before and will say again that I'm glad I've passed the half-century mark. Looking at life when I was a child and into my twenties, then looking at the way things are today, the day I draw my final breath will probably coincide with a world I'd rather not see.

However, also like Ledee, I believe strongly in doing all I can in the meantime, in my small way, to help all I can to bring some degree of reason back into the mix.

Posted by: Seth at August 20, 2006 05:13 AM

Seth, I tried to send a trackback ping but Haloscan says the url to this post is not a valid URL!!!

Posted by: atheling2 at August 20, 2006 01:20 PM

We the younger Generations should learn from History, but we, the younger Generations, are too ignorant to see what is happening to us. We consume TV, Hip Hop, and all that Trash that the Multimedia Industry sells us. Instead of going to School for getting some education, to go and work for a living we think the State owes it to us.

We are just too fat and lazy to realize what is happening to the world, all we want is fun and entertaining.

I too know what the both of you are talking about, instead of entertaining we should start looking around us, we should wake up and make a difference so our kids will have a safe place to grow up.

I don't think that'll ever happen.

IMHO we wake up when it is too late...

Posted by: Nelly at August 20, 2006 01:43 PM

My Dad used to say that America has become a hedonist society.

Part of the problem with youth and learning history is that most young people are extremely chauvinistic - they think that their culture and point in time is superior to all others in the past. I am astonished at how many young people denigrate anything which did not come from their own time period. Read the Message Boards at IMDB... most will not watch a film that does not take place in the present time only. It's really silly.

Doug Copeland (author of Generation X) says he will not read any book which was written before his generation. Isn't that absurdly stupid and short sighted? He must be an idiot.

Posted by: atheling2 at August 20, 2006 02:42 PM

I do believe the liberals have doomed this land we love. They have created a gimme population that is outgrowing the providers (taxpayers). No one is willing to stop dipping into the state's coffers for subsistance and for vote buying. The liberal love of power is the kiss of death for America. Unfortunately those on the give don't want those on the take to see it any way other than an entitlement - and it's working (unfortunately). We have some long weedy rows to hoe if we're to save the union.

Posted by: Old Soldier at August 20, 2006 02:58 PM

atheling2 --

There was a major spambot invasion on trackbacks at Mu.nu, and as far as I know, our administrator has suspended trackbacks for the time being while he figures out what to do about it. That's the only explanation I can come up with.

But the URL as a link should work... I think, LOL. Other recent links to some of my posts have worked.

Your dad was a smart man, I can definitely vouch for that -- I've actually met young people who have never heard of Humphrey Bogart, and some who have but won't watch any of his movies because they're in "ewwww --B & W!" as they so succinctly put it. Or to really trash one's day, "You mean Paul McCartney was in another band before Wings!?"

My upbringing was a little on the unique side as circumstances afforded me the opportunity to see Sunset Strip, Greenwich Village, Haight Ashbury, North Beach and various other cultural anomalies during the times they were remembered for. I also spent a lot of time on Bourbon Street when it was mostly Jazz, Blues, etc, as opposed to these present days of karaoke and frozen daiquiris to go.

Our young people seem to have no reverence for great art, music, architecture, etc that were actually the foundations of what they now possess, and have no problem letting these things disappear forever into the computerized and plasticized society we have become.

Posted by: Seth at August 20, 2006 03:13 PM

Yet, there are exceptions ;)

Posted by: Nelly at August 20, 2006 03:23 PM

1. Tyler's observations remind me of that dreadful tome 'Decline of the West' by Oswald Spengler.
2. Europe does indeed spend more on human services...but significantly less than we on military. Look at Norway...happy herring-chokers.
3. Red state/blue state statistics: find anywhere
the dollar return for dollar in taxes paid..
red states $1.12/1.00, blue states $0.87/1.00.
The good prof's figures, as well as mine, may be
subject to interpetation. An old curmudgeon
German statistician once informed, "The average
American has one testical." But, throwing stats
around is a hobby we all love.

Posted by: BB-Idaho at August 20, 2006 03:48 PM

Nelly --

I grew up in a time (whoa, that makes me sound positively ancient) when there were no computers in people's homes, the WWW might have been mentioned in a science fiction story, telephones had rotary dials, there was no voice mail and the concept of a telephone answering machine would have drawn sympathetic, "you poor mental case" looks.

When I was a preadolescent, color shows on TV were labelled (C) in TV Guide. Now, black & white shows are labelled B & W, and color is the norm. If you went back through time with a cell phone you'd probably have been snatched up by the govt as an alien from another planet, LOL.

Music-wise, few young people seem to have any interest in classical music, so figure that in another 20 years, it, too, might well become extinct.

My whole point is that it's good to keep up with the new, but it's equally important to hang onto the old, from which the new was developed. Certain things, once they've been forgotten, will be lost forever.

Point of interest: One of my favorite 1970s rock groups was from Germany, Triumvirat, and one of my favorite old electronic Jazz groups, also, Passport (led by Hans Doldinger) was also.

Posted by: Seth at August 20, 2006 03:50 PM

Old Soldier --

This is very true, even with so-called "welfare reform". The liberals are trying very hard to turn our capitalist republic into a socialist state, and it seems like they are succeeding one step at a time and all too rapidly.

The original purpose of our government was to protect and defend, and to deal with other countries on our behalf. Now it's become an "all things to all people" situation wherein the working majority supports the lazy minority, and the latter are no longer needed, anyway, because there are millions of illegal aliens here to replace them at great discount.

Posted by: Seth at August 20, 2006 04:06 PM

It is distressing but there has to be an answer somewhere. We know what the problem is and that is half the battle. Now we need a solution to the decadance.

Posted by: Shoprat at August 20, 2006 04:14 PM

B.B. --

LOL! One testie, ouch! That would be a major challenge in redesign for Jockey, et al.

The difference between social services in the U.S. versus Europe says a lot.

Our piece of civilization encourages self-sufficiency, so much so that we are the richest and most powerful country on earth, mainly because of the achievements of individuals. In countries whose continued development is hampered by blatantly available govt safety nets, there is less priority on distinguishing oneself, because there's an easy fallback, and the laziest, even many with sharp minds, take it.

The U.S. has always supported self sufficiency in all things, and it has indeed paid off.

Posted by: Seth at August 20, 2006 04:27 PM

Shoprat --

The answer is tenacity, coupled with rejection of all things PC. As long as we try to please those who would see us fail, we are doomed to do just that.

Posted by: Seth at August 20, 2006 04:29 PM


Of course, you're right. Not all young people are like that. I know some wonderful young people who were raised well by their parents - academically, culturally, and morally.

And I presume that you are as well! ;)

Posted by: atheling2 at August 20, 2006 10:55 PM

The answer to decadence is sacrifice.

It always bothered me that the war in Iraq was so easy for us as a society. Our soldiers paid the price and we just went on, business as usual, without any discomforts to ourselves. What sacrifices have we made, excepting those who lost their loved ones over there?

Those of our parents or grandparents endured things like shortages and rationing. They volunteered to help with the war effort. Now we civilians have little to do. The ones who make the most noise are the anti war protestors. (My Dad called them "professional protestors").

When the war started I tried to find a soldier pen-pal, to whom I could send care packages and letters. I couldn't believe how difficult it was to find one! There is a lot of red tape, which is because they must be guarded over what is sent to our troops - there are too many kooks out there now.

Anyway, I think the privations of a few generations ago built tremendous will and character. I fear that we must go through a terrible calamity which will awake us from our lethargy before we can shake off our hedonism.

Posted by: atheling2 at August 20, 2006 11:15 PM

atheling2 --

I fear that we must go through a terrible calamity which will awake us from our lethargy before we can shake off our hedonism.

That is why I don't believe the U.S., as a nation, is going to develop the resolve to win the war Islam has imposed on us until we have allowed them to sequalize 9/ 11 and murder a few thousand more Americans on U.S. soil. Like the body quickly forgets pain, so it seems that the population just as quickly forgets tragedy. Next time out, we will perhaps find a lot more Americans willing to contribute to the war we have actually been mired in since Ayatollah Khomeini seized power in Iran.

In the meantime, our politicians will continue to perform the "kiss of shame" on terrorism's front organizations like CAIR and our southpaw voting constituency will continue believing all the "Religion Of Peace" propaganda.

It was a sad day for me when GWB, whom I voted for both times, allowed himself to be "bitch-slapped" by the Saudis over his accurate use of the term "Islamic fascists".

Nelly --

You obviously aren't an example of the young people to whom I referred. :-)

Posted by: Seth at August 21, 2006 12:42 AM

Oh I know you didn't refer to me, but I wasn't talking about myself when I said there are exceptions :)

One huge exception are our Soldiers of course, all of that fine young men and women that are out there to make a difference.

And there are many other exceptions too, yet the majority are those that just want to be entertained and take everything for granted which is worse.

Posted by: Nelly at August 21, 2006 01:18 AM

Nelly --

In a fairly recent email debate in which I was engaged, one of the liberal-originated bumper sticker talking points I was confronted with was in response to my referring to the fact that while liberal "intellectuals" in the U.S. condemn our Iraq involvement, those actually over there fighting the terrorists believe in what we're doing. I also pointed out that last year's reenlistment rates among U.S. troops in Iraq exceeded expectation.

I found his reply sort of offensive: That those brave young people fighting for freedom over there were being "duped", and sent him a suitable reply.

Given all the alternative information sources we now have, I am increasingly more amazed at how much truth can be obscured and how much disinformation can be successfully distributed by a media with a political axe to grind and no conscience about the way they go about it.

Anyway, my point: Except when they crow about the latest Iraq casualty figures or find some alleged American "war crime" they can make a circus of, very little is said in the mainstream media about the spirit, guts and integrity of those young people over there (also the goat locker folks who keep the junior officers out of trouble, LOL) who are willing to go into harm's way for millions of people they don't even know.

To say they're all being duped is to render a severe insult to their intelligence and also to undermine their sacrifices, but this is the line liberals give out.

On liberals, I say: send 'em all to France (spit!) where they belong, so we can get on with the business of running the country as it was intended to be run.

Posted by: Seth at August 21, 2006 02:44 AM

ack! Don't do the France thing, please.
Because this is another thing the media loves to produce. Don't hate France.

First France has been an worth ally in Civil War, they helped fighting the Brits. Without the US there never would have been a Revolution in France. Without Civil War, Europe still would be ruled by emperors and kings.

Anyway, do you know how many Frenchman and woman support the US Troops and the purpose behind all of this?

We have French Angels, we have French supporters, and you'll see soon what I am talking about. It'll take time, but you will see and learn that there are many French Civilians that support the US, you'll just never find it in the Mainstream Media.

Well, I know the "duped" thingy from our History, but I have spoken to so many Soldiers. Amy and me currently have more than a 150 Soldiers from the US, Germany, UK, Canada and Netherlands. NONE of them is duped. They are very well educated and I am sometimes surprised of how much American Soldiers know about European History.

Also, people need to learn that most of the Keyboards are defect. Some people say that a lot of Soldiers have poor writing skills, I don't doubt that there are many that have poor skills, but you can find that all around the globe. Yet People shouldn't forget that the PC's in the cafe's usually are defect and nearly broke.

Over here we have anecdotes from Americans that asked if we had any elictricity or cars, if we still live under Hitler and stuff like that. That are just anecdotes and people take that for granted and put every American into one pot to make them Hillbillies which is plain wrong because you guys also have the best Scientiests and Universities.

In every country the media became the mainsource for prejudices... which is very very sad... the media should inform us not dope us with wrong informations.

Posted by: Nelly at August 21, 2006 03:26 AM

Have you been to this blog?


Posted by: Seth at August 21, 2006 04:41 AM

Yep, I've been there and I guess he took his site, huh? ;o)

Posted by: Nelly at August 21, 2006 04:50 AM

Seth, I linked to this post, but your blog provider would not let a TrackBack ping go through - yet again. Just wanted you to know.

Posted by: Old Soldier at August 21, 2006 05:03 AM

Nelly --

He only posted about 3 times in over a year, but now he seems to be slowly getting back in action.

He delivered a great column commemmorating the American 4th of July, but he's also the only right thinking "voice" I've heard from France.

I'd like to read more right thinking French poliblogs, then, to get a different POV than the one I now possess.

The right thinking French need to raise their voices loud enough for us to hear on this side of the Atlantic, because all the news we get on France at this end is enough to put them in the "enemies" column, and the leaders they tend to elect are no friends of the U.S. unless there's something we can do for them. Do you know any other French blogs I might be interested in reading, or non-socialist French newspapers that are online and in English?

Posted by: Seth at August 21, 2006 05:26 AM

Old Soldier --


It's a trackback problem at Mu.nu., nothing I can do. Man vs Computer, LOL.

Posted by: Seth at August 21, 2006 05:49 AM

Actually this is not a 'provender for thought'. Quite the opposite.

This should put things in perspective:


Posted by: Arthur Stone at August 22, 2006 12:26 PM

Arthur --

Having reviewed your input here and elsewhere, I must say I'll be needing to look at this myself. While some of the figures were already demonstrated to be off, they still showed themselves to be significantly angled in the same direction.

As far as this email having been circulating in the Blogosphere since 2000, when Gore lost to Bush, that's entirely possible.

It is, however, the first I've seen of it, and as I indicated in my post, it did arrive as an email. So I'll take the Snopes URL and go there, then see what we have.

Posted by: Seth at August 22, 2006 02:16 PM



There is more here than meets the proverbial eye, if you go beyond Snopes. The quote also goes well beyond the 2000 election, quoted in modern times as early as the 1950s.

Tyler (actually, Tytler) did not receive the title until much later than the quoted book was supposedly written -- it became his title after his father died.

Both Snopes and a researcher wrote that the book in question cannot be found anyplace, casting doubt on its existence, but other researchers believe the quote could have come from another of his works. He also wrote several essays during the years in question, and it is possible that the quote could have originated in one of those.

There is also argument as to whether the quote was actually from him -- among others, some attach it to writings by Disraeli. One thing that's not disputed is that it has been studied and remarked upon by many, long before Bush won the election. Interestingly, its observations have found agreement in many academic forums.

But I've only scratched the surface, and I worked all night last night and was up all day today, so some sleep is indicated. When I wake up, I'll take time to dig further before getting back to the work that pays the bills, LOL.

Posted by: Seth at August 22, 2006 03:19 PM

Get some rest.

There's no end of crazy made-up right wing stuff out there.

It's and endless task.

Posted by: Arthur Stone at August 24, 2006 11:12 AM

Arthur --

Sleep has been gotten. I'm only waiting on the arrival of the book from Forbes book service.

Posted by: Seth at August 24, 2006 12:41 PM

Oh dear. I'm afraid your $60 might be wasted... well at least you'll get a somewhat interesting book out of it. I've read through the relevant sections of Tytler's book -- the quote isn't there.

You might also check out:

which says in part:

"We have scanned our holdings pretty thoroughly on different occasions, going back a few years now, but we have not found the quotation or anything similar to it, but we cannot absolutely rule out the possibility that we have missed it."

These are the guys (University of Edinburgh Library) who have what is perhaps the most extensive collection of Tytler's works anywhere.

I tried tracking this quote back in time and I couldn't get any further back than a few decades. I think it's pretty clear that it wasn't written by Tytler. It might've been written by someone who'd *read* Tytler and who was doing a bit of sloppy paraphrasing and embellishing. But it wasn't written by Tytler.

-Mike Powell

Posted by: M. Powell at August 25, 2006 06:30 PM

Mike --


Well, the book's on the way and I'm an inquisitive sort, so I'll make the most of it. If it's not there, I'll at least have a good book to read and add to my library.

For $60.00, I promise it will be "well read".

Thanks again. :-)

Posted by: Seth at August 25, 2006 06:45 PM