"Israeli liberals, unlike our own, are in touch, it would seem, with a much larger chunk of reality than one might give any liberals credit for."

Funny how the immediacy of a fight for one's life does that.

Liberals here in the States seem to have forgotten about 9/11. Those liberals whom I personally knew before 9/11 did quite an about face. Why? They were rare liberals--they love America. Plus, they had a reality check. I know that sounds like a contradiction. But I don't think so. I differentiate between liberals and leftists. I'm not fond of the former, and I hate the latter.

AOW --

I have tried really hard to differentiate between the two, but when I lived in San Francisco, surrounded by and getting into political debates with every kind of wingnut, I kinda' sorta' began to realize that in many cases, they have closed ranks, agreeing like soul mates on every issue.

Basically, both have completely eased away from reality. I once thought of a leftist as a marxist or even (another pedigree common in SF) an anarchist. However, when I see who the Dems are voting into and keeping in Congress and whom they are attempting to put in the White House, I realize that the majority of those voters are no longer the Democrats I grew up around -- they have, for the most part, listed well to port and remained there. There are, however, a few more responsible, self styled "liberals" around who might better be described as "libertarians", who hold more conservative views on many issues.

Admittedly, no matter how many definitions I've read of "libertarian" and no matter how many libertarians have explained the concept to me, I still don't completely grasp it -- many of their individual beliefs seem to differ from one to the next :-)

Seth, not to compound ambiguities, but most "liberals" do not fit the dictionary definition of liberal. Colloquialism seems to have redefined “liberal” to mean a progressive socialist with a mix of Marxism. Conservatives of today more closely fit the dictionary definition of liberal. I know I have succumbed to the redefining of liberal, and now to me it pretty much means those who merely bitch about everything and doggedly oppose any viable solutions.

LOL Old Soldier!

Seth, not to compound ambiguities, but...

You know, when I try to step away from the whole liberal association, I actually think of the guys with muskets and ponytails who sent the Brits packing some 2 and 1/4 centuries ago.

But we are more liberty oriented than those we term liberals, and, for that matter, more democracy oriented than those calling themselves Democrats.

What a convoluted society we've become.

Seth,
when I see who the Dems are voting into and keeping in Congress and whom they are attempting to put in the White House, I realize that the majority of those voters are no longer the Democrats I grew up around

I know what you mean. At this point in my life, I personally know only one liberal who loves America--he hails from Canada, but is now an American citizen. To be fair here, I must mention that his wife is a righty; they've been married for 37 years. She's had her influence, no doubt.

At the symposium I attended in April, David Horowitz discussed the bastardization of the term "liberal." He provided a date for that, but I don't recall it at the moment.

I just love what Old Soldier said: now to me it pretty much means those who merely bitch about everything and doggedly oppose any viable solutions!

AOW --

I think Old Soldier's description applies well, LOL. When I think of some of the "live" political arguments I got into in San Francisco, it does, indeed.

What these short-sighted wingnuts don't take into account is that many of the changes they wish to engender would have consequences they would definitely not like.